The future

user102937

16:23

@Catija: Is this the new normal now? Make unilateral changes, ask for feedback later? (or perhaps, not even bother?)

7

Catija

The fact that the post exists for the moderators' review kinda belies that, @RobertHarvey

user102937

Were the post notice changes run past the moderators first?

terdon

@RobertHarvey No, that's the old normal. They are actually sharing stuff now, which is certainly a step in the right direction.

2

user102937

@Catija I'll rephrase my question. Is the new policy to put proposed changes to the platform into the Mod Teams first for review? Or was that only done as a courtesy to the mods so that they don't get blindsided by their communities?

2

user102937

@terdon Someone leaked a Mod Teams post onto meta, using a disposable account.

terdon

16:33

I know.

user102937

Then you also know what I'm talking about.

Erik Reinstate MonicA

It did say the change would happen the 13th of November, so the mods have more than a week to give feedback, even if the post didn't ask for any.

Rubiksmoose

@RobertHarvey We do. And also, once again, a leak is only presenting one side of a story and clearly had an agenda.

4

Hitodama

..... Think it is time to go and buy some popcorn. Seems the next episode is about to get aired.

2

PM 2Ring

@RobertHarvey FWIW, it only got 11 (or so) views before it got zapped.

user102937

16:37

Most of them from this room, apparently.

PM 2Ring

It's a rough gauge.

user102937

I'm not here to stir up any more trouble. In a way, I'm glad that SE has decided to focus on the site mechanics for awhile, and the way they are doing seems to be really constructive. I just wish they would consider finding a way to clean up the Superfund site, that's all.

Zoe the transgirl

@PM2Ring It was also archived 8 seconds after being posted. Might've gotten more views after it got nuked. /shrug

user152859

@Tinkeringbell more like rants, but yeah... people are not happy.

PM 2Ring

@Hitodama You might need to wait a while. I assume nobody's going to perpetuate the leak in here.

terdon

16:42

@RobertHarvey then can we please drop it? We'll have plenty of time to discuss it, trying to do so now only stirs up trouble.

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell up to you but might it be better if we move the previous discussion elsewhere?

Hey :)

rene

← 20 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta

@Rubiksmoose hey! I took the advice from @Tink and moved that discussion here

Feeds

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rene

Don't make it blow up ... cheers all

2

room topic changed to Room for a future discussion ;): The future is here [chat] [discussion]

user102937

Oh, look. A new room. :)

rene

16:56

Yes, and you have power here ;)

user102937

Ah, nostalgia.

Rubiksmoose

For the record, the leaker is obviously either deliberately misrepresenting things or has a vastly different take than every other mod I've seen talk in the room.

6

rene

waffles

Rubiksmoose

So, readers, take note.

user102937

Well, it might be worth SE's while to have an, erm, discussion with the folks in there about leaks. As in, don't.

rene

16:59

Yeah, I assume the so mod team should be kept as private as the TL transcript.

terdon

@RobertHarvey That's putting it mildly...

Rubiksmoose

@RobertHarvey We're just as pissed about it as SE could be I would think so it's not just SE that wants a ... discussion.

terdon

I really don't understand why anyone would do this. It seems like petty malice for no imaginable gain.

Rubiksmoose

I don't get it either.

terdon

Also, @RobertHarvey, sorry for trying to shut you down there, but I really think that discussing this in the Tavern would be very counterproductive.

user102937

17:02

NP

terdon

Plus, I keep forgetting you don't have your diamond anymore. D'oh!

Rubiksmoose

And honestly, the range of emotions on this change I've seen expressed ranged from meh, to full support. This shouldn't have been dramatic, and it needn't have been.

mag

what happened in general

I was cycling home when the tavern discussion started

rene

@mag something was leaked from the SO Mod team

mag

sigh

really?

PM 2Ring

17:06

@Rubiksmoose Upgrading the CC license from 3 to 4 shouldn't've been dramatic either... This has way more potential for controversy.

Rubiksmoose

@PM2Ring It really doesn't.

Doesn't mean it's not going to get it, but at it's core, there is no controversy here, it's all being manufactured.

PM 2Ring

Do I need to remind anyone about the bad vibes that arose with Documentation?

Script47

@Zoethetransgirl very risky business posting that link.

Feeds

rene has added mag to the list of this room's owners.

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Rubiksmoose

I have no idea what that is TBH. All I'm saying is that there's nothing controversial here.

PM 2Ring

17:14

@Rubiksmoose Fair enough. I guess I can't be more explicit without mentioning the topic of the leak.

Zoe the transgirl

@Script47 meh

Rubiksmoose

And by "here" I mean in the actual facts. The leaker's controversial opinions/suppositions are not supported by any facts and seem to have been designed to create drama where there otherwise would be none.

terdon

@Zoethetransgirl I admit I kinda wish you hadn't. There really isn't any benefit I can see to starting drama over this before its time.

Stevoisiak

I didn't notice a link posted

Kevin B

it was in the comments

Zoe the transgirl

17:16

if I hadn't posted it, someone else would. I got notified about its existence thanks to the archive.org plugin, and given the link repairing activities of a lot of network users, I highly doubt I'm the only one using it

PM 2Ring

Is it ok to post the URL for the benefit of Mag & other 10k+ people who didn't see the post? I still have that tab open.

Tinkeringbell

Rather not..

Stevoisiak

There's an archive plugin for SE?

Zoe the transgirl

No, there's a general archive.org plugin

PM 2Ring

Not a problem.

Raedwald

17:17

That deleted post didn't simply leak the information. It tried to frame the situation in a particular way.

Tinkeringbell

Thank you :)

Zoe the transgirl

chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/wayback-machine/… addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/wayback-machine_new

Kevin B

I mean... if the "source" it provided is the source, the post doesn't need to do much framing.

Rubiksmoose

@Raedwald It straight-out manufactures things. The more controversial aspects have no factual basis and are purely speculative and designed to create drama.

rene

← 12 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta

M.A.R.

17:19

WTH is that

Emilie

@M.A.R. What Tinkeringbell said :)

← 2 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta

M.A.R.

@Thefuture

Wait, no, OBJECTION. They're not pingable.

Rubiksmoose

Never been in the room :)

terdon

@KevinB And yet, it did.

Rubiksmoose

Not to mention the "source" is also completely devoid of the context in which it was written which was in response to previous feedback.

Script47

17:33

I knew I wasn't going insane...

M.A.R.

Exactly

I'm just nodding in affirmation so people think I know what they're talking about

Rubiksmoose

@Script47 Whoa there, we haven't proven that yet. Just not in this case ;-)

PM 2Ring

18:05

Oops. They tried it again. This time it lasted about a minute.

Rubiksmoose

Lol

This is honestly looking pretty sad on their part. What's the plan here eh?

PM 2Ring

I assume they want to stir up trouble.

I guess they're upset that SE want to roll out yet another change. Sure, they're showing the mods, but I get the impression that the change will happen, and that's not up for negotiation.

Rubiksmoose

@PM2Ring I'm not sure any mods would have wanted to convince them not to change it. Well, I guess there's at least one. Seems like a fairly minor change overall, and the reasons for reverting it seem pretty solid.

rene

This looks like a bit over the top resistance to change.

PM 2Ring

@Rubiksmoose Ok. Yes, it's a reversion. I'm not 100% convinced that it should be reverted, but it doesn't bother me too much. And my objections are impossible to state without spilling the beans.

Rubiksmoose

18:21

> I'm not 100% convinced that it should be reverted, but it doesn't bother me too much.

I think a lot of people fall along this line (including me, really).

Regardless, it doesn't seem like the change itself that is trying to be weaponized in the leaks.

PM 2Ring

18:43

@Rubiksmoose True, it's not the change itself they seem to be complaining about, it's the alleged motivation for the change.

Stevoisiak

The worst thing about the leak is, from SE's perspective, they were punished for communicating the change to moderators

Which doesn't encourage future communication

Rubiksmoose

Yup. It's honestly infuriating. SE is finally attempting to make some attempts to communicate with us (even if not in the way we want exactly yet) and them some doofus goes off and decides they don't care about any of that.

Stevoisiak

Do not punish the behaviour you want to see (mild language)

M.A.R.

But what should we punish then

Stevoisiak

I mean, if the announcements were going to go public soon, then we can let them know loud and clear once that happens

I have no doubt the community will let their voices be heard

Erik Reinstate MonicA

19:01

I guess this MSO question shares the topic of this room. Gets kind-of weird when you can't talk about what you're talking about

Rubiksmoose

Yup. Hopefully we'll all be able to talk freely soon.

Tinkeringbell

@ErikReinstateMonicA Hey I was reading that.... ugh. I kinda dislike not having mod powers everywhere somedays...

Stevoisiak

@Tinkeringbell Wouldn't the page still be readable if it was loaded?

M.A.R.

@ErikReinstateMonicA remember that one time where that guy did that thing and we were all like oh man! but he said that thing back making the situation worse and I went up and did that other thing and we were all like [spoiler redacted] about all of it but we forgot the day after.

Oh right, you don't. Neither do I. Squints

Tinkeringbell

@Stevoisiak Nope, it greyed out for me to the point that it wasn't readable...

Stevoisiak

19:06

Ctrl+A (select all), Ctrl+C (copy), Open notepad, Ctrl+V (paste)

Columbia says Reinstate Monica

@M.A.R. wasn't that when Marklar went to Marklar to get some marklar for Marklar's marklar?

Tinkeringbell

@Stevoisiak Too late, closed the window already...

user102937

The paper to which it linked:

user102937

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-019-09685-x

M.A.R.

@ColumbiasaysReinstateMonica How do you remember?

Talks to his wrist in a menacing way

Columbia says Reinstate Monica

19:08

@M.A.R. klar all Marklars have a good marklar to remember marklar.

user102937

Which, if SE is using as a basis for making any UI decisions, is really disturbing.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

Well, that was a mistake.

Lesson learned

Tinkeringbell

Yes, it was. And glad to hear ;)

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

I honestly hoped it would be a valuable discussion on its own merits

Tinkeringbell

Wait a few days then.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

19:13

it will be a crapstorm at that point. reasoned discussion of how to get good data and make sure we're accurately measuring things, perhaps (gasp) including nonbinary issues... that will get lost

user102937

Discussing ideology is pointless. SE has made their standing very clear. Doesn't much matter how they came to those conclusions.

M.A.R.

FWIW, some folks lurk meta these days that never lurked meta. I'm skeptical if a polarizing issue such as . . . whatever that was can be discussed in its own merit unless it feels like business as usual in the meta.

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey Ehh. Ideology perhaps not, data collection seems a prudent talking point though.

M.A.R.

So wait a few days. Like days in Saturn or something.

Tinkeringbell

@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica I'd advise you to wait another few days more then ;) There will be a time when you can discuss these things without them being drowned out, I'm sure :)

user102937

19:15

@Tinkeringbell Sure. We can debate the merits of that paper all day long, but do you really think SE is going to say "Gee, how misguided were we?"

Kevin B

yes, lets wait until it's all done and overwith to discuss it

Tinkeringbell

Ehh, lemme move rooms again for a sec?

user152859

@RobertHarvey they might. David said that before becoming mute.

Tinkeringbell

← 15 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta

@RobertHarvey And... perhaps, perhaps not... There's been times where things like that have been done (I'm thinking joke threads?)

user102937

It would be a big lift, I think. SE has been talking about this since the Welcoming post, and thinking about it long before that.

Tinkeringbell

19:19

Yep... but in times like this it requires communicating stuff just right. We were given a chance to help on that, and someone blew it :(

user102937

Well, those mods that are leaking stuff. If ever there was a use case for the "any reason" clause in the mod agreement, this would be it.

Rubiksmoose

@RobertHarvey FWIW, and I want to make this abundantly clear: members of SE have said that this was not at all a primary reason they made this change, it was very much a potential side-benefit.

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey And yet, I hope we never find out. I need some sign right now that demoddings will never end up public ever again.

user58

The person they thought leaked the TL transcripts wasn't made public. This would seem to be the same.

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Did they have a real suspect, though? I imagine it's not that hard to cover your tracks.

Meta Andrew T.

19:29

I dunno if I'm allowed to say it on here, but the leaked post was really just one-sided because it only quoted the question while there are many answers providing constructive feedback, and even a follow-up question also with constructive feedback...

user58

@ErikReinstateMonicA I don't remember exactly what they said, and I can't check, but they sounded like they had removed someone over it.

Columbia says Reinstate Monica

Do you suppose we will see an announcement soon over said removal?

Rubiksmoose

@MetaAndrewT. It was very one-sided in much more than one way.

user58

@ColumbiasaysReinstateMonica Doubt it. Highly doubt it.

Rubiksmoose

I would not count on any kind of announcement

Tinkeringbell

19:31

10 mins ago, by Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey And yet, I hope we never find out. I need some sign right now that demoddings will never end up public ever again.

Can't stress that enough, personally...

Rubiksmoose

Very much agree.

Stevoisiak

If they did find out, it wouldn't be a public removal. Unless the mod themselves made it public

If not commenting on mod removals wasn't a policy before, I'm sure it is now

Erik Reinstate MonicA

The stupid thing is that now the gap between SE and the community is now likely even larger, if they can't trust the mods to keep stuff private

user102937

If the guy was smart, he bounced it off sixteen satellites and through a TOR account before he posted it.

user102937

[wonders if one can detect copy/paste in a browser]

user102937

19:34

Oh, sorry. Person

user58

I've been on sites where you can't paste anything in the password field, IIRC

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey Nah, don't worry. No woman would ever be this petty :P

user102937

Heh.

rene

Post spam on MSE for cheap satellites

M.A.R.

@user58 Half the sites where I've had to login, basically

Erik Reinstate MonicA

19:35

@Tinkeringbell That sounds like a challenge! Unfortunately, I'm not a woman...

M.A.R.

@ErikReinstateMonicA Likely? Yes, kinda really wirklich likely.

I can be pretty

Tinkeringbell

Honestly though... things like 'guy/guys' work better to be at least perceived as gender-neutral if they aren't followed up with 'sorry, person' or 'and gal'. (I hate being the afterthought 'and gal' personally...)

user102937

That's the price you pay for having a gender policy.

user102937

It's going to happen. I've already caught myself a couple of times using he or (s)he before posting, only just remembering that neither is appropriate anymore.

M.A.R.

Still unsure it's a full-fledged policy unless it gets brought up

It's like that one law the lawyers have to consult books to find and appeal to

user102937

19:38

All that hammering by corporate, and you still don't think it's official?

user102937

Hell, it was official before it was even published, as Monica can attest.

M.A.R.

Wait, so, what did I miss, about leaking TL messages, or is it not worth digging up?

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey You can use either. You're just asked to not push back when someone edits things to 'they' if gender is indeed unknown.

M.A.R.

Because that seems to be the hot topic today

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Not worth digging up and it was a Team's post.

M.A.R.

19:39

@RobertHarvey I mean, practically, no one seems to be going around enforcing something like it (anything different from what it was before) unless someone makes a fuss

@Tinkeringbell OK, sure.

I dunno what that means though. Are there public teams?

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Afaik even then, a person can state their preferred pronoun, but if you're not addressing them, you can use the generic he if you want

The FAQ just says it's better not to

Meta Andrew T.

@M.A.R. private "public Teams", yeah..

M.A.R.

All I ever know about teams is to sometimes join and read Charcoal and it's so Charcoaly, people doing their normal Charcoal stuff.

user102937

@M.A.R. No, just a private Teams site for Mods. It's supposed to be private, anyway.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. I don't think so. You need an invite into one. The moderators have their on Team, and that's definitely private.

M.A.R.

19:41

status-fuss

Meta Andrew T.

well, just like another Teams™...

Rubiksmoose

@M.A.R. lol

Tinkeringbell

Ehh... there's a slight difference between addressing and 'talking about' that I feel I should point out here because I'd feel like a horrible mod otherwise: If you're addressing someone, you generally don't need third-person pronouns. If you're talking about someone, and know their pronouns, use those, not generic he (or at least don't get mad if your post is edited, and you're in trouble if mods find out you knew but were avoiding the correct ones deliberately).

That's how I took the changes, anyways...

Anyhow... 'focus on behaviour, not specific users' + a form of gender neutral writing being to change single for plural should get you a long way ;)

M.A.R.

But of course, singular "they" being an exception, if I tell someone my pronoun is "she" and they keep referring to me as "he", there's already enough things wrong with that discussion

Tinkeringbell

Yep :)

M.A.R.

19:48

But eh, pretty sure this has been said, explored, exploited a bajillion times already

So let's speculate about how the close vote banner changes will shape curator/mod and user behavior on SO

Or . . . whatever else this looking to the future thing is in this room

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Only the secret fuss thing here ;)

M.A.R.

OMG OMG OMG will John Wick die

Or is Keanu Reeves immortal

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. gazes into crystal 8-ball "Eventually"

M.A.R.

He ages like an elf, that's for sure

Meta Andrew T.

wow, too future for me...

Erik Reinstate MonicA

19:50

@Tinkeringbell I choose to believe that's not true

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell Is that like John Wick 7

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. I dunno, I used an 8 ball.

Rubiksmoose

Tinkeringbell

Can we go to Friday drinks then? :D

I'm at a point where I either want alcohol, or a book, blanket and too much comfort food.

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell Yes please!

Tinkeringbell

19:55

I might actually just go do that. Play nice everyone :)

Rubiksmoose

have fun :)

Rubiksmoose

20:08

room topic changed to Room for a future discussion ;): The future is here [1.21gigawatts] [chat] [discussion]

M.A.R.

🚀

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

20:33

Incidentally, if I wasn't explicit before, I apologize for posts referencing something that wasn't supposed to be public. It may be too late for this, but on reflection, it would probably have been better to roll this change out without any reference to gender.

I may have made that less likely.

It would, though, be nice, to use the SO developer survey gender data to validate a gender inference algorithm (that could then be applied to questions like this), but I suppose that's not something most users are going to care about.

Stevoisiak

The rule I try to follow on meta is, am I asking a question to learn or discuss something, or am I posting with a pre-determined answer or outcome in mind?

Apologies if that sounds accusatory

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

20:50

@Stevoisiak it didn't

Stevoisiak

Right now, I think meta has a lot of posts where the response is secondary to the question itself

Stevoisiak

21:07

Huh. Why doesn't this room show up on the active rooms list?

Rubiksmoose

@Stevoisiak It does for me at least.

It's all the way on the right.

(for me)

Stevoisiak

Strange. It's not there for me

Rubiksmoose

@Stevoisiak Ah nvm. I was looking at active inside favorites

I don't see it either.

But I feel like I've had that happen recently with other rooms as well.

M.A.R.

Stevoisiak

I'd report that as a bug, but I'm not sure I want to draw attention to this room

M.A.R.

21:12

I was exploring ancient alie . . . ancient memes earlier today

Kevin B

caching

Stevoisiak

If I sort by recently created rooms, the most recent one is from 2019-10-11

So nearly a month old

Kevin B

or something more malicious

Stevoisiak

I hope that's not how people would take it if I posted that to meta

Kevin B

well, it's either caching, a bug, or a flag that hides it from the active list

i'd assume caching at this point

Rubiksmoose

21:22

oh hey, I see it now.

on page 2

Kevin B

so it's a sorting thing

Stevoisiak

Strange

rene

@Stevoisiak because I started it as a invite user room

Kevin B

A

@rene is most likely right, the room started as a "Room for [User A] and [User B]" and those appear after ordinary rooms (i.e. rooms created by "create a new room" button) by design. — Shadow The Princess Wizard Sep 3 '17 at 22:25

lol

Rubiksmoose

ahhhhhhhhh

Stevoisiak

21:30

Rubiksmoose

lol

Stevoisiak

This is why you always assume good intent. :P

David A

22:10

As a non-moderator, I have the luxury of installing that "ignore user" plugin and blocking anyone who could get me in trouble.

Kevin B

what does the plugin do that ignoring a user doesn't?

I generally just ignore people i find annoying... but i always end up showing their posts

David A

22:25

Basically making their stuff not appear. You can't reply to people who don't show up.

It used to be that we weren't supposed to think about the people behind questions, answers, and comments. Now it seems like we are. When things become personal, tools like this become useful.

Kevin B

Ah, so it's for the QA site

samcarter

23:33

@DavidA Which plugin do you use? I am desperately looking for a good replacement for one which was broken by the new site design

David A

@samcarter Haven't tried it yet, but there are elements that link to users by ID, which means that those can be selected.

samcarter

@DavidA Ah, so more a theoretical plugin :)

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